Shape of things to come or road to ruin?

Editor’s note: The Press-Republican asked readers to tell us what they think about the City of Plattsburgh’s first roundabout, located at the intersection of Rugar Street, George Angell Drive and Prospect Avenue in front of Plattsburgh High School.

Here are all the responses:

"I feel the roundabout is not the answer to the problem on Rugar Street/Angell Drive. I find it confusing and adding to the congestion.

"Also, how is the city going to maneuver a plow through in winter?

"As a former Plattsburgh High School student, I am well aware of the "traffic problems" in the front of the High School. I don’t see this roundabout as resolving the underlying problem at that intersection anyway.

"The problem with the intersection isn’t traffic volume; it’s the concentration of inexperienced drivers in that one location at certain periods of time.

"Little to no traffic enters the intersection from Prospect Avenue, and Angell Drive only experiences traffic in the morning and afternoon. I’m not sure when exactly this intersection became the biggest traffic concern in the city, but traffic congestion just doesn’t exist in this intersection to merit such drastic changes like a roundabout or traffic light."

"I just purchased a house in the city. I think the roundabout was a well-meaning idea, but the construction of it is a little off.

"I see trucks turning down Leonard Avenue instead, and that street is residential that previously saw no tractor-trailers. I think the types of traffic that goes through that intersection were not considered fully.

"The lanes are a bit too narrow. The dividers going in should be smaller for the lane to be wider and the actually roundabout itself a little smaller to allow the bigger trucks to go through.

"They say you can drive on it if you have to, but would you think that way if you were to approach it?"

"Many thanks to the Press-Republican for providing an opportunity to Plattsburgh residents to express an opinion about the roundabouts. For the record, the roundabouts are not safe or efficient — and the diagonal parking is a ridiculous idea."

"I do not feel as though the roundabout on Rugar Street is effectively working. It does slow people down, but more than anything, I think it causes confusion.

"I can’t imagine what would happen if a fire truck or tractor-trailer truck had to go over or maneuver through this intersection. It appears that it would be dangerous.

"I do agree that fender-benders should be less severe, simply because the confusion causes everyone to slow or stop.

"I say get rid of it and put in four-way stop signs."

"Who the heck thought this one up? My wife and I went to check this roundabout out Saturday morning. We almost got hit by a pickup truck that didn’t yield the right of way. Not that this is anything new, as far too many drivers in this area don’t pay attention to road signs.

"I couldn’t believe how narrow the roadway is going around the center island. Why would anyone in their right mind put something in the middle of the road that has to be driven over by anything larger than a mid-size vehicle?

"Furthermore, there isn’t any escape path to take in order to avoid a collision. Defensive driving is all but ruled out. Where is one to go with only three-quarters of a lane to work with?

"A better solution would be to rework the entire intersection and control it with traffic lights. Of course, we would probably have to wait till the appropriate number of people are killed or seriously maimed before that would happen."

"STUPID. Money would be better spent on street repair."

"I would like to give my comments on the new roundabout on Rugar Street.

"I go through that intersection every morning around 7:30 a.m., which is one of the times traffic can be the worst there. Although I used to have to wait to turn right off George Angell Drive, I preferred that to this new arrangement.

"I have been through roundabouts in other larger cities, and I have two problems with this one:

"1. The intersection is too small for a roundabout. The circle is too tight when going all the way around. When turning right or going straight, it really is no different than it was before.

"2. Drivers are not using it correctly. Most people traveling on Rugar Street keep going the way they always have, rather than yielding the way they are supposed to.

"In my opinion, it is an accident waiting to happen. A traffic light would make much more sense."

"I’m in Plattsburgh all the time, and I hate the roundabout. I avoid the roundabout because I find that people don’t know what to do, and that makes it dangerous. I just don’t feel safe."

"I don’t see where there’s a necessity to have it there. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

"If they put future roundabouts in — I don’t see a need for it in the city — like Broad and North Catherine, it would be a disaster. There’s way too much traffic. It’ll be like a ‘step on the gas and try to squeeze in’."

"I used to use that back way to go to the mall. I try to avoid it now.

"If there’s even one or two cars there, it’s a mess. When school is letting out, it’s much worse. Just getting through it is a pain.

"I don’t know what they’re going to do when it’s time to plow."

"I use that strip for everything. The original idea was to slow down traffic, I believe. The intersection has a lot of traffic, especially when school gets out.

"I used that street all the time and never had any problem with drivers.

"I just can’t wait for winter to see how the plows will keep those very narrow arteries clean; it’s going to be an absolute disaster.

"This may be rumor, but I heard the engineer who came here to design the roundabouts doesn’t even own a vehicle.

"As far as having a fire truck trying to make the curves, I think it’s the most insane thing I’ve ever seen.

"Someone at the top must think we’re like Syracuse or Buffalo. This is a small town, and people have been navigating the streets with no problem."

"I hate it. Basically, I think it’s an accident waiting to happen. It seems like no one knows what to do there, and everybody is tentative.

"I hope they don’t keep it. I’m trying to figure out a way to avoid it. I hate to go that way because I don’t feel comfortable."

"I thought the Post Office (Miller Street) parking was a little ridiculous, but the roundabout is totally ridiculous — a tragedy.

"Our tax dollars are being wasted. Our taxes keep going up, and we wonder why."

"I used to have a moving business; I drove tractor- trailers. I don’t know how I’d get around that circle. No matter the size of the curb, it would be very hard on the tires when you have a full load. Tires for big trucks are expensive. I don’t think it’s fair to the companies that have to make deliveries through there.

"We have a police force; put someone out there, and when you catch someone speeding, up those fines.

"It’s (the roundabout) a hazard."

"It’s tough to get tractor-trailers around it. To maneuver a 43-foot tractor-trailer around the circle is virtually impossible. It will probably damage the circle and will cause damage to vehicles."

"It’s a bad idea. I used the one near the school — I don’t know how you use them, too narrow. (City Councilor) Jack Stewart said the mayor should listen to the people (on roundabouts)."

"If I’ve got a bike, do I become a car? If you’re walking, is the pedestrian allowed to cross? How could a fire truck ever get straight without going across the roundabout?

"Good but too small."

"They should have put in an all-way stop or a light. It’s a mess."

"I think the roundabout makes the intersection awkward, instead of the yield. There should be a four-way stop without the crap in the middle of the road."

"I’m totally against it. They’re very dangerous."

"It’s too small. I never heard anything so ridiculous as having trucks roll over it. It strikes me as nonsense.

"If the city can’t make it larger, they should forget about it."

"Personally being a fisherman, a boater, this is an atrocious thing, this roundabout up by Angel Drive."

"I think it’s dangerous. A fire truck went by yesterday, and he (the driver) had to go over the roundabout."

"I’ve lived in other places where they had them; I’ve always liked them. I work at the school, so I have to use this one every day.

"The buildup we used to have on George Angel Drive has pretty much evaporated. There used to be up to a 20-minute wait some afternoons when school got out. Now there’s virtually no wait; traffic seems to move right along, and those are the pluses.

"It is a little small; it could be bigger. The other thing that needs to be done is education. People don’t know how to use them. There needs to be more education of how they’re used. I’d like to see more of them in Plattsburgh."

"The construction of the so-called roundabout by PHS is an engineering nightmare. The road isn’t wide enough to accommodate an authentic roundabout, and it is cumbersome for cars to maneuver around it, let alone trucks and other larger vehicles.

"I understand that the traffic flow during certain times of the day at that intersection is heavy, but this idea (a bad one at that) is definitely not the solution.

"Although we live in Peru, we use Rugar Street and find attempting to navigate this sorry excuse for a roundabout to be difficult and disconcerting."

"This is a great idea except the circle needs to be three times larger than it is if its intended purpose is to handle traffic volume more efficiently.

"With the circle being so small, traffic cannot flow freely from four directions, and you end up with nothing more than a four-way-stop intersection. Great for reducing speeds, but bad for reducing vehicular congestion.

"Traffic planners should also realize that traffic circles are not pedestrian friendly! Putting one in front of a school is probably not a good idea unless more than one crossing guard is assigned to address pedestrian safety issues."

"The roundabout can’t be for real! It’s as bad as the wrong-way angle parking.

"Maybe the city leaders need to visit some other cities to see the right way to manage a growing city. If you can’t do something right, don’t waste money getting it wrong."

"I think the roundabout is completely ridiculous. Is this the city trying to pretend it’s a metropolis or what? C’mon, Plattsburgh does not need a roundabout. It just doesn’t work for such a small community. Roundabouts require lots of space to work effectively. Somebody make it stop! Please! I’m getting dizzy just thinking about it."

"The roundabout makes little, if any, sense. At a time when the city has already raised every tax and fee and rate, we can not afford the extra expense.

"The idea that large trucks, etc., can drive over it is insane. We are supposed to have roads on which to drive, not curbs to drive over.

"This is another example of officials in our city government insisting on doing what they want rather than listening to the folks who elected them."

"The roundabout pathway to an accident is considered a headache in Buffalo, NY. Drivers in western New York have for years tried to eliminate the circles in the middle of McKinley Parkway.

"Confusion, frustration and accidents have been the only things heightened around the turns. The circles, however, in Buffalo are much wider than the one on Rugar Street.

"This issue will lead to more confusion if not higher insurance premiums. I don’t commend the city at all for this decision."

"I discovered the round intersection last week and had no trouble navigating it. However, I grew up in Massachusetts and learned to drive where "rotaries" were just part of the landscape. There is seldom a problem unless people treat the YIELD sign as a full stop. However, most of those Massachusetts circles have two lanes, not just one as on Rugar Street.

"It is helpful to slow a bit as you approach the circle and to time your merging to fit the speed and spacing of other vehicles going around. Perhaps at rush hour that would be somewhat tricky, but there’s no reason to worry if drivers have to wait a bit before easing into the circular traffic.

"People here should be able to get used to it, unlike the out-of-staters who panic and jam things up waiting to enter the large rotaries at the bridges to Cape Cod!"

"I would like to put in my two cents on the roundabout. I come from Australia where they use roundabouts throughout all of Queensland, and they are very successful. My husband and I have used them on visits and find them very safe.

"My husband, David, says that the only fault he has with the Rugar Street one is that it is too small. But we all learn by our mistakes, and hopefully they will try again at some time."

"The roundabout on Rugar Street might work better if, instead of physical barriers, the lanes and roundabout were painted on the road. This would make it easier for large trucks and emergency vehicles to negotiate the roundabout and still guide vehicles around. This works well in England.

"People just have to learn the new traffic pattern and in time will come to like the way traffic flows. They do work very well."

"It would make more sense to have a traffic light at this busy intersection than this crazy maze you have created. Whose thought was it?"

"I feel a traffic light would be the smarter and safer idea for that intersection. Many people do not know how to negotiate the confusing circle. And it is a tight fit for large trucks and buses. The traffic circle, a bad idea."

"We hoped for a rotary, which is popular in Maine and New Hampshire. The Rugar Street roundabout is a disaster waiting to happen.

"It’s so bad, I had to take my husband to see it. Who’s doing what? That’s the question. Can’t believe any traffic engineer would even allow it.

"Watching a big 22-wheeler navigate could probably get you a win on the funniest videos.

"That’s our opinion, and, oh yes, God forbid the city does that to the base/PARC entrance. Please send this engineer back to school before he does any more designing."

"I think the concept is good but as usual the city failed to do it right. If it were a little larger it might work better.

"I cannot imagine anyone thinking that designing something with the idea in mind that if you could not negotiate it you would just go over the curb. I have taken many drivers for road tests on various-size vehicles and some have failed because they just glazed a curb.

"Many people I’ve talked to wonder what happens when it snows? How easy will it be then to go over the curb? Has anyone taken a plow through there?

"I live on a wide country road, and the plows here can’t even negotiate without taking out our mailboxes on a regular basis."

"Have not seen the new Plattsburgh roundabout, but have seen many here in Florida, where they are the present traffic engineering fad.

"Large roundabouts seem to work fine where traffic is relatively light. They are a nightmare, however, if constructed in small dimensions and/or where traffic is heavy.

"One in particular in Stuart, Florida, is commonly referred to as ‘Confusion Corners.’

"Full-service traffic lights with on-demand sensors are the only sensible way to control traffic and enhance traffic safety at busy intersections."

"I travel Rugar Street two, three times per week. I have noticed a danger at the roundabout; it is that everyone believes that they have the right-of-way. Hence, no one slows, let alone stops, for the other guy, if necessary.

"I heard that fire trucks cannot make it through, ambulances cannot make it through. Why is it even a topic of discussion, if it’s a safety concern — there should be no question, fix it or get rid of it.

"Why don’t the police take charge of the traffic safety concern?

"Another thing, examine the traffic patterns at lunch time and when school is getting out.

"And by all means do not wait till someone is injured or for a life-threatening situation.

"Mayor, you’re wrong. Roundabouts are not for Plattsburgh.

"Fire the engineer. For two reasons — guess the other..."

"Other than it being too small and restrictive to larger vehicles, I think the new roundabout serves a useful purpose. I also travel through that roundabout numerous times a day including 7:50 and 8:15 every morning.

"I have not had any difficulty and have observed motorists yielding to each other and passing through without difficulty. It has certainly allowed vehicles coming out of the High School to go in any direction much faster then before.

"People have a tendency to resist accepting change before trying it out. With some modifications, it will work. However, I wonder how snow removal will be handled as all the curbs will be covered with a significant snowfall and early morning traffic."

"Why don’t they put a traffic light instead of a roundabout? It makes much more sense."

"The roundabout can hardly be called a roundabout. The area is too small for a convenient roundabout, and the idea that the center area was made so the large trucks can go on top of it is unbelievable.

"Having witnessed what a truck driver goes through trying to negotiate the area, it certainly does not accommodate large vehicles.

"Please remove it and put a regular stoplight there. That’s what we should have done before we tried changing direction of travel or installing the temporary roundabout.

"Busy parents on their way to work do not have time to add this extra puzzle to their list of things to do. Thank you for the opportunity to express my opinion."

"Roundabouts do have their place in traffic patterns; however I do have a tendency to agree with the comments made by Mr. Ronnie Rinn to the City Council.

"Further, the roundabout coming from the east to the west is less cumbersome than from west to east, which is both too narrow and too sharp.

"The comments from the fire chief concerning both the ambulances’ and the fire trucks’ ability to ‘take the bump’ and not do damage to the undercarriage is not the brightest thing he’s ever said. The object of a roundabout is not to have that happen — it is designed to smooth out traffic, not interfere with it or cause vehicles to ‘go over the bumps.’

"As for Mr. Stuart Voss’s comments concerning the roundabout, they only typify the difference between academic thinking and reality. It would take a driving genius going west to east towing a boat to maneuver around that portion of the roundabout without running over the barriers. Boat trailers are not built to take the bumps like the fire chief’s vehicles. What damage would that do to a boat or anything else on a trailer?

"It seems the side toward the school is not as wide as the opposite side — did anyone use measuring equipment?

"If they are both of equal width, then perhaps that is the wrong spot for a roundabout. If you really want to see how a roundabout works, go to Latham on Route 9. It’s difficult at best to take something meant for a large area and reduce it to smaller specifications and expect it will work.

"Did any members of the placement committee ever take a traffic light into consideration. Oh, that’s right, there was one there and it was taken out? It does get more difficult when you try to reinvent the wheel. Case in point, the roundabout at that location."

"I feel strongly that the roundabout is a mistake. And I urge the removal of the existing one and also urge that no more be constructed."

"I am responding to your request for feedback on the first (and hopefully only) roundabout by the High School. It has been my experience that it has created more of a traffic problem than existed before. Now there are lines of traffic backed up in all four directions, partly because the lanes are so narrow, but also because everyone has a Yield sign so no one seems to have the right of way. This has created a great deal of confusion.

"The narrow lanes mean that large vehicles, such as the school buses, can barely navigate the curves!

"Since this is admittedly a bad intersection, why haven’t traffic lights been installed here? Why not remove the (useless) light at Adirondack Lane and move it to Angell Drive? If the streets do not line up properly, then a two-light system, such as at the Boynton Avenue-Beekman Street intersection, could be studied.

"As a taxpayer, I’d like to know who dreamed up this roundabout and how much it has cost all of us.

"This seems to be about as much a boondoggle as the downtown Post Office and Court Street backwards parking!!!"

"I didn’t think the roundabout would be a good idea while in the making, but I’ve changed my mind! I think it’s great.

"Coming from Saranac Lake (I work at SUNY), I know Rugar Street is a shortcut to downtown. Way too many cars and especially trucks travel this route to avoid Route 3 traffic lights.

"I’ve witnessed a lot of vehicles barreling past the school and college to Broad Street at unsafe speeds. This road should be for local and school use only!!!

"The traffic circle and the college’s pedestrian crosswalks (which were sorely needed and only installed a few years ago!) make Rugar Street much safer.

"Kudos to the city for its planning and installation."

"This past Saturday, my wife and I drove up Rugar Street to see what all the fuss was about concerning the city’s experimental roundabout.

"What a joke! As a civil engineer having majored in transportation, the effort here would be laughable, if it were not such a hazard.

"As the Press article noted, it is undersized to fit the available street configuration. This cannot be acceptable.

"There are significant critical reasons for sizing a roundabout intersection at its proper dimensions. These include such items as the ability for larger vehicles to make the required turns and the ability to plow it in the winter.

"In a recent letter to the editor, a Mr. Rinn noted that his trucks could not make the turns without going up on the curb with resultant possible damage. Has he, in effect, put the city on notice that should he or others suffer damage in the roundabout because of its poor design that the city would now be liable?

"How about other large vehicles being unable to make the turns, such as school buses, limos, tandem dumps and moving vans, to name a few?

"How does the city plan on plowing it if the plows cannot make the circle? Will they send out a small pickup-truck plow after each storm?

"This appears to be yet another in a long list of poorly-thought-out ideas for ‘improving’ the city and unless properly sized, should, in my opinion, be immediately removed as the liability and traffic hazard that it is."

"I have been through the roundabout three times since its completion and have to say each time I approached it feeling annoyed. To start with, I feel it is completely unnecessary.

"I travel through that intersection many times during a week and never felt it was a problem area. I also walk through that intersection with my dog twice a day and have never had a problem.

"Secondly, I think its design is very unattractive. I can only hope that if it does become permanent the city will keep only the new round area and eliminate all the other chunks of paving. Also some landscaping would make it more appealing.

"I have personally never come across such a small roundabout, and I think it’s a pretty good waste of time and money. I think the city could have used the funds on a more necessary project."

"The Rugar Street roundabout is a good improvement to the traffic jams at Prospect and Rugar. If drivers will learn to slow down and take their time and their turn, then we’ll all be the better — at less cost and for a more attractive junction."

"If the city was not going to take the time and effort to construct a proper rotary, why bother? They have wasted time, manpower and money to construct a traffic hazard.

"(The) comment that big trucks would have difficulty traversing the roundabout is an understatement — a car will have difficulty with this intersection. If the city was not going to use proper dimensions, they should have made this a four-way stop intersection."

"I do not like the roundabout located on Rugar Street. I went through it a few times, and it is an accident waiting to happen. There was nothing wrong with the way it was before.

"I live in Cliff Haven, and I am dreading the day they put that roundabout by the base. The traffic light has worked perfectly for many years; why change it now?"

"I’ve traversed the roundabout on Rugar Street, and I think it’s asinine.

"If large trucks have to drive onto the sidewalk now to go through it, how are snowplows suppose to go through in the winter time? Also, how are large low-boy trailers that have only about six inches of clearance suppose to clear the concrete obstructions without getting stuck on them.

"Seems to me somebody didn’t do their homework.

"Another moot point, here in America these were always known as ‘traffic circles’; how did the British Isle term get adopted?"

"After living for many years in Germany, England and Iceland, as well as several areas in the U.S. with these traffic devices, I would have to say that if there is a need for one here, this isn’t it.

"Normally, these are 50 to 75 yards across, and the one on Rugar Street doesn’t meet that criteria.

"They also are normally at major intersections of highways, not on a residential street. It would be fine instead of the overpass on Route 3 and 87.

"The one on Rugar is so small you can’t determine who has the right of way because as soon as you enter it, you’re out of it. Bad idea there."

"In my opinion, the roundabout installed on Rugar Street near the High School is one of the stupidest things I have ever known a city to do and quite dangerous. It doesn’t appear to serve any purpose whatsoever.

"This morning, I was driving west on Rugar Street, and, as I approached the roundabout, I noticed an 18-wheeler tractor-trailer trying to drive east on Rugar. In order to navigate past the roundabout, the driver had to drive right up and over part of the asphalt circle.

"I realize that there is a lot of traffic there at certain times of the day, but there is a traffic light nearby and the speed limit is 20 mph, so I can’t imagine why anyone decided a roundabout was necessary.

"Unfortunately, a roundabout is proposed for the intersection of Route 9 and New York Road, which is near where I reside. Again, what is the need? I frequently drive through that intersection, and the traffic signal appears to be working fine.

"So far, all the opinions I have heard among my neighbors have been negative, and we will look for alternate routes rather than driving through a roundabout.

"Surely there are better things to be done with our tax money."

"What experience I’ve had with it — it seems much more dangerous than it was. I don’t know the theory behind it, but it doesn’t seem the best thing for traffic. I hope it will be changed back."

"I am in this area often with my teens, going to school at PHS and also am a member of a nearby church.

"In the short time it has been there, I have been almost hit several times. I am very acquainted with how they work after living in Sacramento, Calif., where they have a lot of them. However, most people here have no idea how they work, which makes them very unsafe.

"I watched the kids trying to cross the road — now that not one car stops, it is almost impossible for them to get across. Whoops, City Hall forgot about them.

"The only thing that is going to help the area when school is in is a good old-fashioned traffic cop for a couple of hours when school is open.

"To sum it all up, it is dangerous, and it needs to come out before something happens."

"Dan Stewart’s comment: ‘As people learn how to get through the roundabout it will get better.’ When the back-in parallel parking was started that was suppose to get better. What a joke!

"Who ever heard of a curb designed to drive over?

"With the streets in such dire need of repairs, like U.S Avenue, how can money be so wasted?"

"I pass through Rugar Street every day. I personally think that the roundabout complicates traffic flow more so than the way it was. If traffic was such a problem, why didn’t they just install a light at that intersection?

"I cannot see how any big vehicles, including emergency vehicles, can safely go through there without some type of obstruction. I can’t imagine what it is going to be like during a snowstorm in the winter when plows have to clean the streets.

"I believe that most of Mayor Stewart’s ideas have been beneficial for the community, but allowing a traffic circle in such a small area is ridiculous."

"I like the traffic circle!"

"I would like to offer my opinions on the new traffic circle that was recently constructed on Rugar Street/George Angell Drive intersection.

"As a full time, on-campus student at Plattsburgh State University, I must travel through this traffic circle every time I leave the parking lot where my car is kept. I do not like this circle. I think the intersection itself is much too small to accommodate a circle like this. Traffic cannot flow smoothly when driving through the circle due to its small size. Also, when going through the circle, I find that many drivers do not know how to negotiate around the circle, and I have witnessed a few close calls."

"The intersection at the corners of Rugar Street, Prospect Avenue and George Angell Drive was an area that needed to be addressed. However, I believe the roundabout is a cumbersome and ill-conceived response.

"The simple solution would have been to change the light at the intersection of Rugar Street and Leonard Avenue to a yellow caution light to slow traffic. Then install a traffic light at the Rugar Street, Prospect Avenue and Angel Drive intersection with a pedestrian walk light.

"Instead, we have a very tight circle that many find confusing. It appears difficult to get through if you’re driving anything larger than a Mini!

"The fire department, ambulance, police and anyone driving a large commercial truck will have trouble maneuvering through the circle. I’m sure the plows will do a number on it in the winter, requiring continual maintenance at the taxpayers’ expense.

"This project, like the change to alternate parking on several streets in the area, lack a major component: common sense."

"I think that the new roundabout is a accident waiting to happen. I drive through there twice a day, and people are confused about who has the right-of-way.

Why didn’t they just put a light there instead?"

"If the city is going to put a roundabout in, they need to put a sign up saying the roundabout has right-of-way instead of the yield sign. They should put up a sign like in Europe. This would help cut down on near misses or accidents.

"Me, personally, we don’t need a roundabout. They should put a traffic light there and remove the one that is approximately 150 feet from the circle that leads to the student parking lot, going toward the college track field. Many of us don’t realize there is one there or just blow by it."

"I don’t think the roundabouts are necessary. The area is too small. The city made a mistake in the first place in allowing Angell (Drive) to be built out of alignment with Prospect Avenue."

"I think the "rotary" is a terrible idea. It is a waste of time and money. There is not adequate space for it, which makes it totally inadequate. Rotaries are practical in some areas but definitely not in such a rural area. Furthermore, I have never heard of a rotary being called a roundabout — where did that come from? I think this idea is as stupid as the parking spaces that are on Miller Street. They are backwards. I have been to many urban areas and you always pull into these spaces, not back in. Who is responsible for coming up with these stupid ideas?"